In this episode, I'm joined by Helena Sarén to discover how Finland achieved a nearly 95% carbon-neutral electricity mix and set the ambitious goal of carbon neutrality by 2035. We dig into the country's pragmatic approach to nuclear power, how its relationship with neighboring Russia has shaped its energy independence and security strategies, and how Finnish industry is actively pushing for more aggressive climate targets rather than resisting them.
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David Roberts
Hello, everyone. This is Volts for April 11th, 2025, "What's up with clean energy in Finland?" I'm your host, David Roberts. Finland is a Nordic country in the very north of Europe, with Sweden to its west and Russia to its east. Were it a US state, it would rank fifth in size (just behind Montana), 23rd in population (just behind Minnesota), and 27th in GDP (just behind Louisiana). It is on roughly the same latitude as Alaska.
Quietly, without getting nearly the attention of some other countries one could name, Finland has become a global leader in decarbonization. Already, nearly 95% of its electricity comes from carbon-neutral sources, led by nuclear power. In 2023, Finland opened its fifth nuclear power plant; nuclear now provides close to 40% of the country's electricity. Wind, hydro, and biomass provide most of the rest.
The country's government has adopted the extremely ambitious goal of full carbon neutrality by 2035, followed by carbon negativity; in 2022, it released a detailed climate and energy strategy. It was, not surprisingly, colored by concern over Russian aggression; Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022 and Russian-Finnish relations remain fraught.
Finland has got one of the most reliable energy grids in Europe, its own nuclear waste repository, and a whole bunch of district heating, all of which sounds very cool to me.
So, to dig in and hear more about what's going on up there, I have with me today Helena Sarén, head of the Zero Carbon Future Mission at Business Finland and a longtime player in the clean energy scene there. We're going to get into all the country's successes on energy, what remains to be done, and what other countries might learn from the Finnish model. Without any further ado, Helena Sarén. Welcome to Volts. Thank you so much for coming.
Helena Sarén
Thank you, David. It's a great pleasure to be here today with you.
David Roberts
So, I'm looking here at this graph of Finnish electricity sources. Got nuclear around 38%, wind around 24%, hydro 17%, biomass 11%. That's an extremely clean mix relative to a lot of other countries. And so, I thought we could start with just a little history. How long has all that nuclear power been around and how long has all that wind been around and what was powering Finland before all that stuff? Maybe give us just a little history of the kind of sustainable energy in Finland so far.
Helena Sarén
Finland is — we are not very rich in natural resources, so we do not have any oil, gas, or coal of our own. We have plenty of forests, plenty of clean water, quite nice wind conditions, plenty of solar in the summertime — much less during the wintertime — and so that's about it. We are very pragmatic, I would say, as a country and a people. And we have recognized very early on that we have to build on the resources we do have and also be capable to have that kind of resilience no matter what happens in the world.
And that has led us to have a very diverse energy mix decades and decades ago. It started pretty much with biomass and hydro energy and that kind of stuff. Gradually, we built nuclear power plants. Then, during, I would say, the last 10-15 years, much more focus has been on renewables, namely especially wind energy and solar. In wind energy, the situation shows that it's mainly onshore at the moment, with a couple of turbines in the sea, but offshore is coming strongly into the picture. We also have an increase in solar. As you stated, CO2 neutral electricity production is about 95% at the moment, which is pretty high.
A major increase has taken place in wind energy. At the moment, there is a pipeline of new wind energy projects, whether onshore or offshore, that could generate more electricity than the whole consumption in Finland at the moment.
David Roberts
Oh really? It's interesting because, you know, Finland, much like a lot of other countries, is trying to decarbonize and has realized that decarbonization comes mostly from electrification. So the actual electricity demand in Finland is going up as it is, as it will be in many countries electrifying. So, you have this legislation that passed that set this goal of carbon neutrality by 2035. You have this strategy that comes out in 2022. Really fascinating strategy document. I read through most of it, I mean, it's quite extensive, but it really —
Helena Sarén
It is extensive. Yes.
David Roberts
You really get the sense of — you know, like here in the US, I guess everything that the government does is so controversial. Like in the US, you know, you could propose cute puppies and 50% of the country would instantly hate cute puppies. But like, this just has, the document has the feeling to me of like, "We're not arguing about this anymore, we're just being practical." Like "We all agree we need to do this. How should we do it?" You know, the pragmatism really comes through. It's quite refreshing. So maybe talk a little bit about what this legislation does and all the kind of sectoral roadmaps, like how are those coming along?
Helena Sarén
Yeah, this is maybe a little bit longer story then. So, as you stated, there are really, really ambitious targets. So, carbon neutrality by 2035 and carbon negative by 2050 and we have also stated that we will phase out coal altogether by 2029.
David Roberts
Coal is now 1.5% of your mix. Got to squeeze that last bit out.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, and most of the energy utilities actually are phasing, or have actually already phased out the coal, are going to do it well in advance, not waiting until 2029, but they are doing it now. So that is also something I think is phenomenal there, what is happening. So what our targets mean, all in all, is that when we are thinking about CO2 emissions, we should reduce the emissions by 2030, about 60%, and for 2040, 80% when we compare to the figures in 1990. So, huge, huge reductions.
David Roberts
Yeah, 2030 is not that far away.
Helena Sarén
No, it's not that far away. No, no, not really. And I would say that the reasoning there behind why we have reached such nice figures already by now and such nice reductions is mainly because our energy industry has invested a lot and they have done their share. Also, our industries are very committed. I'll get back to this soon. And there where we have challenges, which is pretty much the same in many other countries as well, is the transport and mobility that is so closely connected to our everyday lives, or how I take my kids to their hobbies and how I drive to the office, etc.
So, that is a very, very difficult question in every country, also politically. And then another story which is also challenging is this agricultural and forest sector. So, this kind of land use sector. But I would say that the energy sector and industry sector, they have done a remarkable job already by now. One typical feature in Finland is that we are not a hierarchical country. So, I could say that in a grocery store I could bump into a minister buying his or her groceries, I could go and talk with him or her, I could give a call to the ministries or even ministers if I have a telephone number, and probably they would even pick up the call.
So, in that way, it's easier to collaborate when we share the same target. And that means that all the bits and pieces in our authorities and ministries and so forth are running towards the same targets. So, that's easier.
David Roberts
Would you say that across kind of politics, different parties and everything, are people mostly on board with this? Is this pretty popular? Is there any substantial political opposition to this?
Helena Sarén
I'll get back to you soon about this, but I want to say a couple of things still about our industry. You asked us about the roadmaps and one good example of our collaboration, and really all of us driving towards this same ambitious target, is that 14 of our main industries created their low carbon roadmaps in 2020 and last year they renewed them. And that shows that all the industries in our society are very committed to this low carbon transition. And what was very late news was that about a couple of weeks ago, 200 Finnish companies signed the Finlandia Declaration and it was supported by our main industrial associations.
And they had a delegation and met with our Prime Minister and said, "Please keep our ambitious targets alive."
David Roberts
Oh, interesting.
Helena Sarén
Yes, and we are committed to doing our share and making the investments. There were some very international companies which signed the declaration, like ABB, Wärtsilä, Veolia, Valmet, Kone. They are making the elevators and that kind of people movement equipment. So, I mean, I would say that our industries and businesses see that this is the only way for Finland to renew and make new business out of decarbonization. And when we go back to these political questions, and of course, there are always debates here and there, probably not to the same extent that you are having — a little bit milder.
David Roberts
Well, you're not cursed with a giant fossil fuel industry, so that does make things somewhat easier.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, that might be. That might be. So, like our present government, even though they probably had some different kind of opinions early on, they are all now committed that this is now in the law and we are going to stick to that one. And I would say that the many parties also in the opposition, they are also supporting the targets because they were in a previous government which really put this law in force. So, I would say it's pretty unanimous. But of course, there are when we're talking about windmills, it's "Not in my backyard" effects.
David Roberts
Oh, you have that too.
Helena Sarén
Yes, it's everywhere, you know. Probably, people don't want to have the windmills in front of their summer cottage when they are having the sauna and go to swim in the lake or the sea. So, that's about it. But it is doable.
David Roberts
And I wonder, while we're on politics, let's just touch on it. Is the threat of Russia, is Russia being right next door and Russia being so dominant in gas, that obviously shapes Finland's politics. And I wonder if that's part of the reason why there is so much agreement about this. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's such an obvious national security issue. I wonder if that is part of the reason why everyone agrees.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, it's a huge national security issue. And from my personal point of view, if I may bring that to the table, please, it's about how we got our independence in 1917 and then during the Second World War we had a couple of wars with Russia. And from my personal family history, my mother's family had to flee. So we lost everything. So our home and everything and the part of the country now belongs to Russia. And I have also three children and two boys. And they just were in the army because it's a must to do in Finland.
All males have to go to the army.
David Roberts
Right, right. Everybody does a year.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, it depends. It can be a minimum of six months. But most serve about 11 months, yes.
David Roberts
Interesting.
Helena Sarén
Yes. So, that kind of family history. But I want to emphasize here also that we don't have that kind of wish that we want to get that land back. So, we think that's history, that's gone. And we have lived with that one and have great memories about earlier times. So, that is something. But Russia, yes. And like I said in the beginning, we have very pragmatic people. So, we have learned to live with our — we call them the Big Bear. They're next door. So, we have learned, but we have always been prepared.
That's something that we have always been doing. That's the reason why we joined the European Union. That's why we have been very much intensifying the collaboration with other Nordic countries. And that was one of the reasons we also joined NATO.
David Roberts
Yeah, Finland spends more per capita on its military, I think, than any other European country.
Helena Sarén
Yes, that's true. And we have the largest artillery in the whole of Western Europe. Just one tiny note here. But about Russian gas. When the aggression towards Ukraine and the war in Ukraine started, we ended all the imports of Russian gas. We have a Russian — the pipeline is still existing. There was gas flowing directly from Russia to especially the southern part of Finland. But we ended that pretty much after the war started.
David Roberts
And so that must involve then building some LNG import facilities if you're going to get it elsewhere?
Helena Sarén
Yeah, as an example, we are now importing LNG from the USA. Then, we also have the kind of floating storage which we share with Estonia and that kind of reserves also and other sources of hydrocarbons.
David Roberts
And just to clarify, in the US, we use a lot of gas for electricity, but you guys do not. Gas is mostly an industry feedstock.
Helena Sarén
For industrial purposes, yes. And also, what makes a huge difference when we compare Finland to, for instance, Central Europe on this gas topic, I would say that it has much larger effects with the Central European countries. As there are many households, they are heated by gas and they are using this gas in households. But in Finland, it was very minimal. If I remember right, it was something only about 8,000 households.
David Roberts
Interesting.
Helena Sarén
So, I mean, it's just, it was a minority.
David Roberts
So, if there's any impact, it's an impact on industry. It's just industry getting a feedstock from somewhere else.
Helena Sarén
Yes, but then, on the other hand, it was probably easier to replace, and many of those industries were not based along the gas pipeline. Instead, they were, for instance, somewhere on the western coast where they anyway had to take them to Finland by ships and so forth.
David Roberts
Interesting. So, I want to get back to heating later, but first, I want to talk a little bit about the grid. I am, this podcast and me personally, very devoted to grids, very in love with grids, clean grids and much to my sort of delight when I started researching this, Finland has an extremely advanced, resilient, secure, and strong electricity grid. So, very few brownouts or blackouts, anything like that. Like, very good grid. So, let's talk a little bit about how you run your grid. It is very much market-based. There's an energy — pretty advanced — energy market.
Tell me a little bit about some other features of how you've built that grid up.
Helena Sarén
Yes, we have a national grid operator, surprisingly called Fingrid. And I really highly value the work that they are doing as they are constantly looking to the future as if there is a huge amount of new renewables that need to be linked to the grid. It might take six, seven, eight years with the licensing when it's constructed. So, they have already been very much advanced, something like 10 years ago, started to build that kind of capacities and had all that kind of construction work in the pipeline. So then, our grid was ready when new wind turbines became operational.
So, that is one thing to look into the future and have different kinds of scenarios and so forth.
David Roberts
Smart.
Helena Sarén
Yes. And then an additional thing is that we have been for decades connected with other Nordics and we are part of the electricity market called Nord Pool. Obviously, that has been one of the backbones for our industrial, I would say, electrification and also our society to electrify and also to develop because we have been able to utilize also Norwegian hydropower and sometimes when we have also excess electricity, we could sell it to Sweden or Norway or even Denmark. And now we have also another connection to the Baltic states. So, I would say that has been a very, very good move.
David Roberts
And this is a market with spot pricing that varies by time and location. You know, just the sort of location and time-sensitive pricing that we're struggling to get over here; it's fully in place there. There's lots of models for distributed energy sources feeding into the grid. There's a lot of advanced thinking about that. But then also, these energy communities, I was very intrigued by that. Tell me a little bit about the thinking there.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, if I may still go back a little bit about this grid, there are a couple of features there and, like you very nicely said, it's spot priced and it has gone so far that I, as a consumer, for instance, am buying spot priced electricity. So it varies on an hourly basis. And we have had in Finland, in every household, smart meters for about 20 years. So every household has had a smart meter and probably now already the fourth or fifth generation of smart meters, which has been the rollout, and in a couple of years' time, it's going to be like in 15-minute intervals.
David Roberts
Interesting.
Helena Sarén
Yes, smart metering. So, that means that we can optimize the network and the consumption all the time. That is one of the reasons, I would say, that the market prices for consumers and of course then from other industries as well, has been one of the lowest within Europe.
David Roberts
Yeah, yeah. I meant to mention that not only is this a very sophisticated grid and a very reliable grid, but you have cheap electricity, some of the cheapest electricity in the EU.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. And as an example, in my own house, it's kind of a one-family house with five bedrooms just to give the scale, last year the electricity bill was about €1,500, which is about the same thing in US dollars. And that includes the electricity as such, but also electricity for the heating. And take into account that we have a pretty cold five, six months here. So, I think it's very reasonable pricing, I would say.
David Roberts
Well, also, you know, when you have all that wind down the coast and all the wind is blowing at once, you get something we get, you know, in some individual states here sometimes, which is basically free electricity.
Helena Sarén
Oh yeah, that's true.
David Roberts
Electricity is zero or even lower.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, yeah. And it was this Saturday, so now this is Monday, so last Saturday we had a negative price. So actually, when I was consuming electricity, I got paid for that.
David Roberts
So tell me about these these energy communities, what's the sort of idea, thinking behind them?
Helena Sarén
Energy communities, I find a very fascinating concept, as you mentioned as well. So, a couple of them with what I'm more familiar, I would say, it's like an individual energy grid or, in other words, a kind of community.
David Roberts
Microgrid is the —
Helena Sarén
Microgrid might be the right wording for that one. And there are like energy generators, there might be like a solar panel field, there might be then storage solutions there, there might be some kind of hydrogen solutions there. And then you combine it also with the heating and cooling. So some of these energy communities are located for instance closely to shopping malls where there is excess heat and they can just put the excess heat then and it can be utilized somewhere else for instance in the process industry or heating the greenhouses or something like that one.
So, it's like a community where the generators, the producers, the off-takers, they have jointly created that kind of a microgrid. And it includes quite often electricity and the heating as well.
David Roberts
Yeah, and I think the idea here is that these communities are, to some degree, self-sufficient, can be islanded off from the larger grid. So this is like, this is a grid architecture, cool grid architecture thing that I've done many, many pods on. Like a bottom up, a bottom-up grid. Finland's at work on that.
Helena Sarén
Yes, and many of them also have connections to this Fingrid net, just in case. But like you said, self-sufficient, and some of the new residential areas, if they are not very closely linked to the main grid lines, they might have an opportunity. I want to go and take this kind of energy community viewpoint.
David Roberts
Cool, love that stuff. So let's talk now about nuclear power. So it's sort of funny, I didn't know before going into this that Finland had so much nuclear power. And it's sort of like anytime in the US context you hear about nuclear power, it is a) an incredibly loud, angry controversy and b) very little nuclear power results from it. It's mostly controversy and very little actual power. And it looks like in Finland, you've gone the opposite way. Lots of power, not that much controversy. I mean, in the US, this question of how to build nuclear power plants on time and on budget is apparently a problem that we just cannot solve.
And it sounds like it works in Finland. So, I'm just like, "Is it what it looks like from the outside?" Are these popular? Are these... is there any controversy around nuclear power and how are you building them on budget? Because we can't seem to figure that out.
Helena Sarén
Oh, the budget. Right question, that is a tricky one. Yeah. But if I go back some decades, maybe I would say '70s, '80s and this is a good example as at the time, especially the Green Party, like there was a huge green movement also in other parts of Europe. They were opposing heavily the nuclear power. But some years back here in Finland, the Green Party said that they are supporting the nuclear power because it's clean.
David Roberts
Oh, interesting. So, you took a very different path than Germany, for instance.
Helena Sarén
Yes, they had the "Energiewende," and yeah, they have had some challenges now, I would put it that way because of the Russian gas and everything there. So, its industry definitely needs lots of electricity. So yeah, that's a little bit different kind of attitude and that probably comes back to this pragmatic viewpoint. We see it very strongly that it's clean energy and in order to make the decarbonization before all the other technologies and solutions are going, we have to ensure that we have enough of them there. So, during this time, we probably need nuclear power.
And, as an example in Europe, for instance, France is sharing the same kind of viewpoint, and so other countries are doing things a little bit differently.
David Roberts
So, one fascinating aspect of this. You just had this new nuclear plant open up, was it last year, the year before, which was actually the third reactor on that site.
Helena Sarén
Yes.
David Roberts
Which is all on this one little island. And now you're in a situation where this one little island is providing 30% of Finland's electricity because it's got these three nuclear reactors on it. Pretty amazing. And on that island, and I'd love to hear a little bit about this, you have onsite waste management. This is something else that is like endlessly controversial. In the US, we can't seem to find a place to put our waste permanently. So it's just being stored onsite and we fight and fight and fight about it. So on this island though, you have something sort of self-contained, you know, all the waste just gets buried onsite. Talk a little bit about how that came about.
Helena Sarén
Oh yeah, of course, when we are talking about nuclear power, then the burning question is about what to do with the nuclear waste because it's radioactive for a pretty long time. And we started to plan and build a deep cave. I might say that might be the right, right wording. It's in Finnish, we say Onkalo, which means that — the wording means like a deep cave might be a right, right translation for that one goes several hundred meters, I'm not quite sure, in depth there. And have different kinds of holes there.
So, I mean, you can have the radioactive waste then, and securely and safely be deposited forever then. But one of the good points here is that our ground, it's mainly granite so it's very stable. We don't have any earthquakes and so forth. So it's safe to put it there because in some parts of the world, you cannot put it. So, we have a very safe earth crust here so you can have it. And that was already started, the planning, when we had our first nuclear power plants. So already, we had to start and find out what would be technological solutions for depositing them for us then, till the end.
So, that was one of them.
David Roberts
Nuclear is now up to about 40% of power. I know there's a lot of research going on around SMRs, around small modular reactors. Is there a big push for more nuclear? Like, is that sector still expanding, would you say?
Helena Sarén
I would say that it is. And even though there was a time in the world, maybe it was Fukushima and others, so nuclear power was not that popular. During these decades, we still kept in Finland the research and development running. So, we didn't close that track of research and development. Some of the largest energy companies in Finland have recently stated that they are doing the calculations about whether there should be some new nuclear power plants. And now we are talking about this large-sized because after a decade or so, some of them will be closed down because they are at the end of their life cycle.
So, what will happen then? They are there making the calculation, but obviously, it's a huge investment so they need to make the calculations for that one. But the SMRs are very interesting and energy utilities, some of them have stated also in Finland, they want to have a ready to invest in those to also produce the heat for our district heating network. So, that is a highly, highly interesting area not only in Finland but more largely also in the European Union. And by the way, we have also the memorandum of understanding with the USA about the nuclear collaboration.
David Roberts
Oh, interesting. Yeah, we've been talking about SMRs forever in the US, but maybe pragmatic Finland can actually build some. Let's talk about wood then. This is a bit of a controversial subject in a lot of places. So, Finland is sort of legendarily covered with forest, uses a lot of wood in electricity via biomass for electricity, and these district energy systems, which are all over Finland mostly, as I understand it, run on wood chips, also run on wood. So, you know, in a lot and, certainly in the US, the whole question of whether wood forestry is actually zero carbon is very controversial.
So I wonder, is it also controversial there in Finland? Like how is wood largely viewed as a sustainable source there? Or are there fights about forestry and about how to calculate carbon uptake and all this kind of stuff? Are forests controversial there too?
Helena Sarén
Yeah, the calculation has been quite a lot on the table recently, as it seems to be that, for instance, we are calculating in a different way than Sweden is. So, I think that personally, we should have a unanimous way of calculating within the European Union in order to be able to compare the situation in different countries.
David Roberts
Well, you are in a shared carbon market, right? So, you should have shared measurements of wood.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But all in all, I would say that we see it as very sustainable and we also take very seriously the forestry and how we take care of our forests because it has been pretty much the bread and butter, the forest-related industries for Finland for already from our independence beginning of our independence time. So it's something that's very, very close to our hearts and it's pretty much international DNA, I would say. I would put it also in that way. But the principle is that we are always taking less from the forests than the annual growth.
That is principle number one, I would say. And then, for what purpose we want to use it, it's mostly on value-added products. So it could be like a construction of houses or something else, but use the wood for more value-added products. And when we are using it as bioenergy, we are mainly using forest residuals, stumps from the forest, etc., which don't have other value.
David Roberts
Right.
Helena Sarén
So, we are not like putting the finest logs in the oven, so to say.
David Roberts
And is. I saw an article that said recent measurements show that Finland's forest has actually become a net carbon producer.
Helena Sarén
Yes.
David Roberts
Recently, I think that has something to do with increased logging. But also, your electricity sector is growing, your population is growing. So, it looks like there's going to be more wood needed in the future, especially if you're going to try to get away from all fossil fuels. So, how are you thinking about that? Because already the forests are obviously in a tender state and you're going to need more wood going forward.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, and now I go back a little bit about this calculation and differences here. How do you calculate? And that's been quite a lot of debate about how you should calculate or whether you should do this and that and so forth. So yes, the most recent calculations show that they are not carbon sinks but they are actually releasing more CO2 than they are taking. But let's leave the research to researchers to take care of the calculations. But one of the reasons why we have now utilized more forests now is that we don't have any imports from Russia because they were used to, used to import a lot of forest products and, and logs and everything from Russia and obviously not now.
But still, I would emphasize here that we are taking care of the forest and we are still taking less than they are annually growing. So that is very, very crucial. And I think we are the most forested country in Western Europe. So that's really, really something, yeah.
David Roberts
Are there any efforts underway to move district energy systems to different heat sources?
Helena Sarén
Oh yeah, that was the other part of the question. I already forgot that one. Yeah.
David Roberts
And if so what, like what are the alternate heat sources?
Helena Sarén
Yeah, under the electrification. So, there are like huge water boilers where the energy companies have invested in. So, when the prices are low for the electricity, they heat the water. So, that is something they are doing, different kinds of energy storage solutions. Very interesting. There's a new company which has studied and made research and has developed a sand battery. So, there are new kinds of solutions coming. And then, as a very interesting piece of information, is that in Helsinki, under Helsinki, as we have this very, very solid ground there, there are these huge large caves where some of them are filled with water and when we have excess heat, they drive the excess heat there and then you can utilize it later on.
So, there are different kinds of solutions. But I would say that utilizing the electricity, for instance, these large water boilers as such, those are going on. So, some investments, yes, are related to bioenergy. But I would say that we see more and more of these new kinds of solutions where you can store the heat or then you can utilize the electricity.
David Roberts
Well, one thing I didn't see come up at all, which puzzled me a little bit, was geothermal. So, in the US, you know, there's both deep geothermal that can do electricity, which is now, you know, very far technologically developed from what it used to be. You can do it now in areas that don't have natural volcanic activity with enhanced geothermal. And then there's also in the US, popping up in more and more places, this sort of these district energy systems that are just using boreholes, just these sort of, you know, it's kind of shallow boreholes to get the shallow heat from the earth. Is there any talk about geothermal in Finland?
Helena Sarén
Yes. Oh yes. Oh yes.
David Roberts
Good. We love, we love geothermal. Everybody loves geothermal.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They will say one test drill hole, something going down to some 5km or so, and they tested it for some years, but it wasn't too successful then. Now they've closed it down. But anyway, I think it shows that such good development is going on and research is going on. Many houses are utilizing this geothermal for their own purposes. So then it's drilled to something like 100 meters or 200 meters or something like that. But there is more and more development and also the energy utilities are utilizing this kind of mid-sized geothermal which is then maybe some kilometers but not going to 5km or so. So yes, it is part of the mix as well.
David Roberts
Let's talk about one of the things I did a pod on recently, which is the sort of role that urban design plays in decarbonization. So that's everything from the buildings themselves to roads and transportation, walkability, bikeability, you know, all this kind of stuff. Is that playing a big role here in Finland? Does that get a lot of attention? Just this kind of urban fabric itself? I mean, you only have one big city, so...
Helena Sarén
Oh well, that's true, that's true. And it's not that big either. But yes, the urban planning, I would say, has been for decades an integral part of the cities and municipalities when they are planning these kinds of development plans, what they are doing. And in Finland, it includes a lot of activation of the public and people who are living in the area. So, because the kind of public acceptance is very crucial. Another phenomenon here, I think, is that they try to integrate different parts of the society when they are doing the urban planning, for instance, having enough of these kinds of recreational areas and forests and parks, etc.
So, people can spend their free time. For instance, in this capital area, they are jointly planning transportation and mobility solutions not only in Helsinki, which is the capital, but the surrounding cities. So, they are not making only their individual solutions, but trying to think about how we as people are moving around because we are going cross city. I mean this kind of from city to another city to another city.
David Roberts
Is there a big push for more public transit? Because, you know, when it comes to transportation decarbonization, there's basically two big levers. One is you can electrify your vehicles, which I know is underway in Finland. And the other way is just to get people to drive less.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Public transportation is something that has been, it has been, I could say, always here. And that's why probably I didn't bring it up because I thought it was so self-evident that it is existing, but now I'm thinking about my perspective, it's probably not.
David Roberts
Yes, I know. We do not take it for granted, let's just say.
Helena Sarén
Yes, so we take it very much for granted. So, like in the capital area, there are buses going, there are trains going, and they are all the time thinking about some logistical point of view. So, "Okay, if I take the bus and then I have to take the train." So, all these logistics are working smoothly and I would say also that it's very nicely priced. So, it's also good from that perspective.
David Roberts
It's popular. And there, you know, it's cold there, as I'm sure you're well aware. Is there a big push to retrofit existing buildings to improve their performance, or were they built well in the first place?
Helena Sarén
Many were built. I would say that all the houses, like we have three glasses.
David Roberts
Triple pane glass.
Helena Sarén
Yeah, yes, that's the right wording, that one. But yes, there are these kinds of rules, legislations, have become stricter and stricter. It has developed in that direction and also like new buildings, official buildings, you should have, for instance, solar panels on the rooftops. That kind of things, they are proceeding. Now gradually, houses are retrofitted, yes. But I would say that all in all, they are built already quite nicely.
Already, from decades back. But whenever there is a kind of retrofitting taking place, so naturally, they put extra insulation to the walls and to the roof. Especially, the roof is very important. So that takes place, yes.
David Roberts
And then, actually, you mentioned solar. I meant to discuss solar earlier. So, right now, solar is a pretty tiny sliver of the electricity mix: it's 1.4%. I think probably people who don't know anything about Finland would just guess from its latitude that it's not that sunny. Is there big potential for solar there? Is there a big push to put solar on, you know, not just solar fields, but solar rooftops? Like, is that growing? Is the solar piece of the pie growing?
Helena Sarén
Right now, it is growing not only the solar plants as you mentioned, but individual households are investing a lot in solar panels. And I would say that roughly, at least in southern Finland, you get electricity nicely for about eight months a year at least.
David Roberts
How long is that dark winter?
Helena Sarén
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gradually, after the darkest months, you start to get some solar. But then during the summertime, I mean, it's like 22 hours a day sunny.
David Roberts
Yeah, true.
Helena Sarén
So, it depends. And then, also, people can sell the excess electricity back to the grid. So, that is one additional point here. But yes, it's growing fast. Some years back, there was governmental support or aid when people were putting their solar panels or they were exchanging their oil-driven heating systems, so you could get minor support for that one. But it was minor.
David Roberts
So, I wanted to ask about data centers. This is an interesting — as I'm sure you're aware, the whole situation around data centers has changed quite rapidly in recent years. They want lots more of them. There's a big push on to build them all over the US. And I know you have a couple of big data centers in Finland that you're proud of. They're hooked up to — they're using their excess heat for district heating systems. All very cool, very well integrated. So, I'm wondering, given Finland's stability, particularly the stability of its grid and the cleanness of its grid, it seems like all these big companies that want data centers would be knocking down your door to get in there.
Is there a big push to build more data centers in Finland?
Helena Sarén
Yes, there's a big push, I would say.
David Roberts
And, like, is there such a thing as too much of a — you know what I mean? Some states in the US are worried about, like, is there such a thing as too much of a good thing? You know, are you worried at all that you're going to get too many data centers, they're going to dominate the electricity system, et cetera. Like, how do you think about data centers?
Helena Sarén
Yeah, that's a discussion that's going on. And like you mentioned, a couple of big players, large players like Google and Microsoft, have already invested here and Google is making additional investments. So yes, they have been here quite a long time and see this as I would say the grid is good, cool climate is good for the data centers, and also they can do this kind of societal good also when they are, they can get rid of nicely of this excess heat for the district heating cooling. It could be also utilized in, for instance, in sawmills, in drying wood or somewhere in greenhouses.
But yes, there's a discussion going on about how, for instance, flexible the data centers are. They should probably become more flexible. And I would see an interesting development that maybe, jointly, we could develop something related to AI, some kind of competence development around the data center. So it would not just be — sorry for using the word "just" — be a data center, but building some additional components and competencies around that one. So that might be an interesting thing to do. But yes, there is a push and lots of interest towards Finland about the data centers.
But, like you said, probably there is some kind of balancing. I would love to see, yes, we need to have, and it's good that we have the data centers, but I would love to see also other industrial renewable investments taking place which are then a different kind of business and then we wouldn't be too biased on and solely on one area of expertise and would then from that perspective be more competitive as a country.
David Roberts
You still need that balance. Let's talk briefly about hydrogen. I was a little puzzled reading around about this. Like when I look at your energy system, I don't totally see where you need hydrogen. And yet, there's tons and tons of hype about it and activity and research and development projects. So, why all this enthusiasm for hydrogen?
Helena Sarén
Yeah, there are several end usages where you can actually use it, or you can also use it there in between as an intermediate. But it's a very crucial source, for instance, for the steel industry when they want to get in the processes, get rid of some fossil fuel. So, you can also use hydrogen there. And there are a couple of large steel factories in Finland and Sweden, and if they change into hydrogen, it's a huge, huge emission reduction. So, that is one end source that you can use it.
Then, obviously, the hydrogen could also be one form of energy storage as such. But where I would like to see much more emphasis and collaboration and development is how we could utilize hydrogen together, for instance, with nitrogen or together with carbon. And you could take the carbon capture, for instance, from the industries and make new fuels. So, practically the same kind of hydrocarbons that you are now taking, having as a natural gas, you can use it, they make it from other sources as well. So, new kind of fuel. So, whether we're talking about methanol, whether we are talking about ammonia, which is also a good source for fertilizers and at the moment quite a lot of fertilizers come, for instance, from Russia.
And fertilizers are also very expensive at the moment. So, that would be also one additional end product. But then, when we think even more, I would love to see this hydrogen economy evolve to that kind of producing new kind, kind of a non-fossil based chemicals, materials, and even food. And now, I want to mention one very great and exciting example, and it's called Solar Foods.
It makes actually food out of thin air. So, carbon capturing and so forth. And actually, they are shortlisted and they have connections and an agreement with NASA because when you are sending the astronauts somewhere to Mars, you have to produce food and then you could produce it, right, for instance when people are producing CO2. So, I mean really, you could make food out of that one as well.
David Roberts
Interesting. So, this is more of a play to just be part of the international hydrogen economy more than just specifically making it for yourself?
Helena Sarén
Yes, yes. And I see it as one crucial ingredient for our industry of renewables. And I would like us to build new industries with partners based on a hydrogen economy and more value-added products. And not to be like, like you mentioned, like a solo H2 producer, because it's then more like a pulp and paper producer. It's like a basic and somebody else makes the real business out of that one.
David Roberts
Higher up the value chain, yeah, yeah. Speaking of that, the last thing I wanted to ask you about is what I really had no idea about and was really fascinated to learn is that in terms of natural, speaking of natural resources, Finland has all the materials for batteries. These are, you know, this is becoming a bigger and bigger subject where you source the sort of materials for batteries. There's a lot of sources that are, you know, socially or economically not that great. And this is potentially, you know, I don't have to tell you, the battery, the whole battery world, the whole battery market is rapidly, rapidly expanding.
So, but then again, you're, you know, when you're just mining materials, you're there on the low end of that value chain. So, how do you think about Finland's role in the battery world? Battery industry?
Helena Sarén
Yeah, yeah, we are actually a mining country of the European Union, and we have especially nickel and cobalt here, a little bit of gold and something else, but especially nickel and cobalt, which are obviously important in the battery.
David Roberts
And wasn't there a big lithium deposit discovered last summer?
Helena Sarén
Yes, yes, sorry, yeah, I forgot that one. Yeah, sure, yeah, that's true. And I would like us to have here also the industrial plants which are processing these raw materials at least a little bit further. And there are now new announcements, some investments about some cathode material or some kind of things, what they are needing in the battery industry. So definitely that is an area, not just to dig out these valuable earth minerals and then ship them somewhere else. So definitely that is an area. And there we need collaboration and, and we also need foreign investors.
David Roberts
Do you have any battery manufacturers yet or is that all just kind of coming together?
Helena Sarén
Not the whole package. Not the whole package. Parts.
David Roberts
This has all been super fascinating, Helena. There's just so much to learn, so much I didn't know about Finland and it's really, from an energy perspective, fascinating. Oh, the one other fact I learned about Finland that I wanted to get in here somewhere, I didn't even know where to put it. But lots of countries are worried about rising sea levels. I found out that in Finland, the opposite is happening. Finland is rising out of the sea because, you know, it spent centuries underneath these heavy glaciers.
Helena Sarén
Yeah.
David Roberts
And now, it's literally rising up out of the sea. So, you know, that's at least one thing you don't have to worry about.
Helena Sarén
Yeah. But the ground is rising there a little bit north of the middle central of Finland. But the capital area has a little bit of challenges with the rising sea levels, but not that bad. Not as bad as in many other areas. Yes.
David Roberts
All right. Well, Helena, thank you for coming on. Thank you for all your time and this has been really fascinating.
Helena Sarén
Thank you for having me.
David Roberts
Thank you for listening to Volts. It takes a village to make this podcast work. Shout out, especially, to my super producer, Kyle McDonald, who makes me and my guests sound smart every week. And it is all supported entirely by listeners like you. So, if you value conversations like this, please consider joining our community of paid subscribers at volts.wtf. Or, leaving a nice review, or telling a friend about Volts. Or all three. Thanks so much, and I'll see you next time.
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