In this episode, I talk with Patrick Robbins of Public Power NY and Johanna Bozuwa of the Climate and Community Institute about New York's groundbreaking Build Public Renewables Act, which empowers the state's public utility to build clean energy at scale. We explore how this surprising legislative victory happened, the challenges of implementation, and why public ownership might be the key to making renewable energy both politically resilient and economically accessible.
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David Roberts
Okay, then, hello everyone. This is Volts for March 26th, 2025, "What's going on with public power in New York?" I'm your host, David Roberts. One of the core beliefs of “ecosocialists” and others on the green left is that the government should play a much more active and direct role in planning, financing, and building the clean energy necessary to decarbonize the economy. They argue — many pointing to the work of recent Volts guest Brett Christophers — that the market, left to its own devices, will never build clean energy fast enough. There just isn't enough profit in it. The power is in the public interest, so the public should pay for and own it, or at least a good chunk of it. So goes the argument.
Public power advocates have had few policy victories to point to in recent decades until last year, when the New York State Legislature passed the Build Public Renewables Act. The law would put the New York Power Authority, the state's public power utility created in the early 20th century, in charge of building the renewable energy needed to meet the state's ambitious targets and have it shut down its gas plants ahead of schedule.
It was a surprising show of strength from the sometimes fractious coalition behind the plan. Activists had spent the previous several years stumping for the bill, pressuring lawmakers and primarying key politicians who were wishy-washy on public power. So how did this thing pass? Is it working? What other policies are needed to help it along? Is it politically resilient? And what's next for the public power movement? To discuss all of this, I have with me today Patrick Robbins of Public Power NY, one of the key groups that secured this victory, and Johanna Bozuwa of the Climate and Community Institute, which advocates for public power.
So how did this thing pass? Is it working? What other policies are needed to help it along? Is it politically resilient? And what's next for the public power movement? To discuss all of this, I have with me today Patrick Robbins of Public Power NY, one of the key groups that secured this victory, and Johanna Bozuwa of the Climate and Community Institute, which advocates for public power.
With no further ado, Patrick and Johanna, welcome to Volts. Thank you for coming.
Johanna Bozuwa
Thanks so much, David.
Patrick Robbins
It's great to be here.
David Roberts
So much to cover here. I say that at the beginning of every pod, but, like, once I dug into this, I was like, "Oh, my God, this is like 12 pods." So we're going to try to move quickly. But Patrick, I want to start with you and maybe talk a little bit about the history here. The effort for this particular build dates back to 2019, but the choice to push for public power was a deliberate choice on the part of the movement. You know, there's a lot of meetings and discussion like, "What can we do? What can we win here?"
And you chose public power. So, maybe just take us back to 2019 and talk a little bit about why this, why public power as opposed to all the other things that are possible in New York?
Patrick Robbins
Just before we begin, I do want to say how thrilled I am to be on. I think it was your utility explainers back in the Grist days that got me thinking about the electric grid as a site of struggle.
David Roberts
Deep cuts.
Patrick Robbins
Yes, absolutely. With the quokkas. It definitely feels full circle. And thank you for having us on and happy to speak about the connection between the kind of origins of this campaign and the moment we're in now. So, I think we all know this is a really dire moment for everything we care about.
David Roberts
Oh, is there something blowing up...?
Patrick Robbins
Yeah, it's not great out there. And for renewable energy to survive in this moment, we believe it has to be as popular as Social Security. Public power is how we get there. That was a deliberate part of how we were organizing from the very beginning. So, if you go back to 2019, New Yorkers had just passed the Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act, thanks to the work of New York Renews. This was supposed to usher in a kind of new era for climate progress in New York State and established a legal mandate for New York to get 70% of its electricity from renewable sources by 2030.
And right around this time, a number of ecosocialist organizers in New York City voted to prioritize public power as a campaign. I think that from the very beginning, there was this idea that we needed to change the political economy of renewable energy. It has to work for everyone if we're going to be able to do more. I think there was also an awareness that the state was unlikely to meet even the ambitious legal goals that it had created. So, about three years ago, the New York Independent System Operator found that New York would need to add about 20 gigawatts of renewable electric capacity to meet its projected goals.
And there's a lot of reasons for that, the reasons why this has been so slow. Our ISO has for years been one of the slowest RTOs in the country. Only about 18% of projects make it through. And this is often because the cost of studies and upgrades is really prohibitive for individual developers. Then, on the financing side, in order to even be eligible to play the game, and your listeners will be very familiar with this, you have to be able to take advantage of the investment tax credits and production tax credits. So, right there, you're looking at private finance consuming 20 to 25% of the value of the project.
And this has real impacts for ratepayers. It makes it more expensive. It means that there's more uncertainty in the wholesale markets as well. So, that starts to factor in there as well. It's a really inefficient and wasteful system, and that has real consequences for everyday people. So, we were thinking, what can we do that changes the kind of political deadlock that we are in around renewables?
David Roberts
And can I just ask, it's New York ISO, right? You have your own ISO, the state?
Patrick Robbins
Yes, indeed. And so enter the New York Power Authority (NYPA). This is a New Deal era authority that was created to manage the state's abundant hydropower resources for the public good.
David Roberts
And this was created right around the same time and in kind of the same spirit as, you know, the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) and the... What's the other one? Starts with a B.
Johanna Bozuwa
Bonneville.
David Roberts
Thank you.
Johanna Bozuwa
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, actually, NYPA was the predecessor. It was really actually FDR trying something out when he was governor. And that really laid the groundwork for him to actually think about utilities as a point of struggle up through the New Deal. It was really his testbed for TVA and Bonneville.
David Roberts
I did not know that.
Patrick Robbins
Exactly. And I will just share a little bit of personal context here as well. My great-grandfather was one of the lead engineers on Muscle Shoals and worked with the TVA and was deeply committed to public power. When I first started off working on this, I didn't really have a lot of context for that, but I started going through some of his old papers and just getting really inspired. So that was another really fortuitous connection there too. But yeah, NYPA already serves public institutions like the MTA and the SUNY system, so there is already proof of concept.
And it also serves the 50 or so small towns in New York State that own their own distribution lines, all of whom have cheaper power than anywhere else in the state, by the way. And that's not a coincidence. So, up until the passage of the BPRA, NYPA could not build new renewable generation capacity. And it was extremely curtailed in terms of the entities to whom it could provide power.
David Roberts
Wait, it couldn't by law?
Patrick Robbins
No, it couldn't by law. Yeah, it was limited in terms of the actual number of projects that it could own and operate. So, it was this kind of artificial restriction for the benefit of private generators.
David Roberts
Interesting.
Patrick Robbins
And so, we mounted a multi-year campaign to pass the Build Public Renewables Act, because we felt like here's this incredible resource that is not being utilized and in fact being deliberately suppressed in terms of the transformative power it could have for the state. And so, the intention of the BPRA is to reverse that. And rather than say you're restricted from building, you have to build new public-owned renewable generation whenever we're falling short of our legal renewable electricity targets. And one thing I want your listeners to take away is that we really have to use public institutions as a tool in the fight to grow renewable energy, because it's common sense.
If you have this resource, then we have to be using every tool in the toolbox. And we knew that we were fighting for something that was a pretty new idea. So it was important for us that this work for everyone, not just morally, because it's the right thing, but also politically. And so we had many, many conversations over years with environmental justice organizers, with labor unions in a variety of different sectors, with towns and organizers and advocates from every part of the state. It was a really, really exhaustive and grassroots process. And I feel like we won because of that, because we had built this incredible coalition.
And I'll say a little bit about what that looked like. All 10 of New York's gas-fired peak power plants are located in black and brown communities where asthma rates are much, much higher than the baseline. So, we spoke with organizations like UPROSE and South Bronx Unite and the Environmental Justice Alliance, and these are organizers that have been fighting against this environmental injustice in their own communities for decades in some cases. And so, we ended up working really closely both on the bill text and on the overall fight. So, that was one sort of plank. And then, organizing with labor was really interesting too.
It was important to us that these projects get built with absolute top of the line labor provisions. So, it was a little bit difficult at first to get some of those conversations going. I think that there are trade unions that have historically been opposed to public power for a variety of reasons. On the flip side of that, there's this long history of the climate movement, in my opinion, brushing labor's concerns aside. There is this kind of vexed relationship with renewable developers. When we were organizing this in 2019, that was when Bright Power broke the effort to unionize in Long Island just by firing everyone.
And so, there's a lot of trust that we needed to rebuild, but we did end up building that trust. After a while, the AFL-CIO itself came to the table and we basically told central staff in the legislature, "Just give them whatever they want." And that's how we ended up with some of the strongest labor language of any climate bill in the country. You know, this includes project labor agreements, prevailing wage provisions, applications of those provisions to contractors and subcontractors, and millions of dollars in funds for apprenticeship, pre-apprenticeship, and wraparound services. So, again, this is both the right thing to do, because it's the right thing to do.
We have to support labor, especially now when the NLRB is under attack. But it's also just pragmatically the right move. These are workers who are deeply embedded in their communities, who show up at hearings, and who work to protect their political interests. So, I think that cost and climate are often framed in opposition. But we were able to win because we exposed this as false or, at minimum, the product of specific policy choices. So, we said it's not cost versus climate or jobs versus climate. It's jobs because of climate, affordability because of climate. And we won on that.
And that was because of public ownership.
David Roberts
Well, you say you won, but that glosses over a lot of turbulence.
Patrick Robbins
No kidding.
Johanna Bozuwa
Campaigning in a nutshell, right?
Patrick Robbins
Well, like you said, we need 12 podcasts, but I'm happy to get into it.
David Roberts
Yeah, so, like, there was initially resistance; there was fighting. Then, Kathy Hochul tried to pass a kind of slimmed-down version of this. And you guys got up in her face and beat that. Very briefly, tell that story.
Patrick Robbins
That was a really revealing moment to me when that happened. So, this was during budget negotiations, and the governor's office put forward this plan that had kind of stripped away both the labor provisions and largely the environmental justice provisions as well. And this was happening after the leadership of 1199SEIU issued a statement in favor of the bill. And they did that in part because they have a lot of members in environmental justice communities, and a lot of their workers who work providing healthcare see firsthand the devastation of the existing energy system we have. So, it wasn't just about jobs.
David Roberts
I thought labor was like an 800-pound gorilla in New York. Why is the governor sticking her thumb in their eye?
Patrick Robbins
Well, I think that honestly, unpacking the psychology of the Governor is a little bit above my pay grade.
David Roberts
Her entire ideology seems to me —
Patrick Robbins
There's a lot about Hochul that baffles me. I'm not going to lie.
David Roberts
"Yes, good things, but just not that much good things. Just a little bit less good things." That's her ideology.
Johanna Bozuwa
As a treat.
David Roberts
"Good things, but not so much."
Patrick Robbins
Hundred percent. Totally, totally. But I think here's the thing, though, David, I think it's worth noting, like, what kind of compromises the governor is proposing. Because as much as I might joke about this, I do think that most politicians understand the power of a united coalition and a united constituency if they understand nothing else. So it's not a coincidence that the governor offered us a version of the bill that would have fragmented our coalition. So if you're wondering whether or not political economy is important in these fights, the people in power absolutely know that it's important.
David Roberts
But you hung together, and she just backed down.
Patrick Robbins
Well, yeah. I mean, after a while, I think it was really clear. After that statement from the 1199SEIU, I think we were talking about what kind of bill, not whether or not the bill was going to pass. And I do think that we saw the results of sticking to that and not isolating our coalition partners. And so, there was a period of time that NYPA took to develop their strategic plan.
David Roberts
We're going to get to that in a minute. But first, I also want to talk about one other episode in the process of passing this thing, which is the House put it forward, but the Democratic sponsor of the bill in the Senate — this is where New York politics gets a little opaque for me. The Democratic sponsor of the bill in the Senate refused to bring it to a vote in the Senate, which is not behavior typical of bill sponsors. And then y'all primaried him. Ran a primary against him. So, let me also tell that story very briefly.
Patrick Robbins
Oh, yes. Okay.
David Roberts
And that was quite controversial whether to do that, right?
Patrick Robbins
I mean, yeah, that was not a decision that was made lightly. And I think that is one of the advantages you have when you are working both within and without the traditional nonprofit climate world. There were many organizations that are structurally unable to do that kind of thing. They are structurally prevented from taking precisely the kind of steps that actually get results. But the DSA, at least so far, does not have that kind of limitation on its power. And so, the DSA did run a challenger that took our bill sponsor to task for essentially sitting on this and not moving it as the chair of the Energy Committee.
He wanted power over whether or not it was brought to a vote, and he wanted power over the campaign, and that's part of why he chose to sponsor it. But when you looked at the primary results, David Alexis came within a hair of putting him out of a job. And if there hadn't been a spoiler, it's anybody's guess what would have happened. And so, I will admit that there was this kind of surreal feeling after that when we watched Senator Kevin Parker bring the bill to a vote, kind of echoing our talking points, like echoing the very things that we'd fought him on for about a year.
David Roberts
That's how it's supposed to work, right?
Patrick Robbins
Yeah, yeah, it is.
David Roberts
Put the fear of God in him and then —
Patrick Robbins
Truly, you know, the fact that we did run a really fearless, aggressive campaign is also a huge part of why we were able to do what we could do. And one thing that I want to say on that is that I'm really, really proud of the campaign that we fought. But the story certainly did not end when the bill passed. In fact, it's kind of the opposite. I mean, anybody — you know this very well — anybody who's worked on climate politics or energy politics understands that you work and work and work to pass a bill and you fight for years and then the bill passes and that is when the work begins.
David Roberts
Yeah, I mean, well, the whole history of getting this bill passed is like people in power trying to screw you. And it's not like after it passes, they're going to stop screwing you. Yeah, they're still up there trying to screw you.
Patrick Robbins
Yeah, totally.
David Roberts
So before we talk about NYPA, the New York Power Authority and how it plans to implement this thing, let's just talk for a minute about what the bill says, what is in the bill?
Patrick Robbins
Right. So, the bill mandates that NYPA look at our progress toward meeting the state's climate goals and do an assessment with the ISO and with NYSERDA, and conduct this kind of robust stakeholder process to get a sense of where we are.
David Roberts
This is 70% by 2030.
Patrick Robbins
Yes.
David Roberts
And I'm assuming, like New York is nowhere close to on track for that?
Patrick Robbins
Oh, no. In fact, NYPA's draft report asserts that we are only likely to meet 44% of our demand with renewable electricity by 2030. So, that's not us saying that, that's NYPA itself admitting that.
David Roberts
Right? Yeah, 2030 is coming right up. It's funny, I've been talking about 2030 deadlines my whole career and all of a sudden, like —
Johanna Bozuwa
It's tomorrow, basically.
Patrick Robbins
Yeah, it really is. And I will share that the Trump development gives all of this some real urgency. You know, we need to get this built now. You know, there's the safe harbor provisions around IRA-backed projects, but I really don't want to depend on that.
David Roberts
Well, we're going to return to the Trump effect later, but let's get down exactly what's in the bill here. So, it tells NYPA, insofar as New York is falling short of its goal, you got to fill the gap.
Patrick Robbins
Yes, basically. And it gives NYPA fairly broad leeway in terms of how to do that. It can partner with private developers. Private developers cannot own a 50% or more stake in any of the projects, but they can partner on them. We recognize that this is a new thing that we're asking NYPA to do and we want them to be able to develop their capacity to do more. And that's not going to happen overnight. So we said, "Okay, sure, you can partner to a reasonable extent and work with private companies," particularly so that another concern is making sure that existing unionized workers on projects are able to preserve those contracts as well, so that was a concern for us.
But we worked it into the bill so that private companies can't own more than 50%; they can't own half or more. NYPA has to be the majority owner, even in cases where there are public-private partnerships. And that revenue then goes back to the New York Power Authority. The New York Power Authority has to conduct this kind of bird's eye view survey of where and how it's going to build and engage in a stakeholder process with a variety of stakeholders from across the state to kind of collectively develop a plan for meeting those goals with publicly owned renewables.
And in the final plan, it has to give a certain amount of detail about where and how much capacity all of those projects will be.
David Roberts
And then you have the labor provisions. All of these projects are using top-notch labor provisions. And then there's a bit about credits to low-income ratepayers.
Patrick Robbins
Yes, I'm really glad you brought that up. So, that's the REACH (Renewable Energy Access and Community Help) program. And REACH does this really great and kind of unique thing with the revenue from projects where it turns that revenue around and directly credits low-income ratepayers on their bills. So, it's this clear connection between renewables and affordability right off the bat. And so, one of the things that we've been working on is just trying to make sure that there are as many projects built as possible, because the more capacity you build and the more revenue these projects are generating, the more you have in the pot for that program.
David Roberts
So, the more NYPA builds, the more revenue it gets, and the more it can lower bills for low-income ratepayers. And is that low-income ratepayers across all of New York, or just ratepayers of NYPA?
Patrick Robbins
So, it's across all of New York, but it's also specific to utility region. One of the glaring gaps in the strategic plan as it exists now is that there's just not a lot built in downstate New York, which is of course right where there is the most demand. One of the reasons that's such a problem is that the way our Public Service Commission has structured REACH, it is utility territory by utility territory. So, we really need more projects built all over the state, but especially in New York.
David Roberts
You get more low-income rate reductions in a utility area, the more projects you build in that utility area?
Patrick Robbins
That is exactly right. I mean, one thing I do want to say though is, you know, I have these problems with it and certainly the campaign continues and certainly we're going to keep putting pressure on NYPA, but I think the program is a really big deal and I think it's really, really important that we have this, especially at this moment. So, I don't want to lose sight of that either.
David Roberts
Well, I mean, it's all out on the bleeding edge. Well, one basic question I have is, where does NYPA get the money to do this? Depending on, I mean, we're going to get into this with the implementation plan, depending on the implementation plan, depending on how much it builds, but it's going to need a lot of money, and not only a lot of money, but like the bill specifies, these are like top-dollar labor conditions, you know, like top-dollar nice facilities built. Not even necessarily where like a private developer — you know, a private developer would just look for the cheapest possible place to put it.
You're asking them to put projects specifically in congested areas. It will be more expensive and land is more expensive.
Patrick Robbins
Yes, we are.
David Roberts
So, all of this sounds like you're mandating NYPA to get some of the most expensive power possible. So, where does the money come from to do this?
Patrick Robbins
Well, I am so glad you asked. That is definitely one of the first questions that anyone asks about this ambitious program. And I think that NYPA is really a secret weapon when it comes to renewable finance because of its bond rating and because of its public financing capability. So, public entities like NYPA have the kind of bond rating that lets them do interconnection upgrades in a way that private entities often can't afford. So, first of all, they don't have to worry about the kind of tax equity swap dynamics that you and I were describing before. And so, the cost of capital is much, much, much lower for public entities.
So, a study completed using modeling from the Rocky Mountain Institute demonstrated that NYPA could replace its fossil fuel assets entirely with new renewable capacity without damaging its credit rating and keeping its debt service coverage ratio in that sort of like 2 to 2.5 range.
David Roberts
So, the bill passes, there's much celebration, and then we have NYPA. Basically, the next step is NYPA comes up with a plan to do this. And so, NYPA comes out with a plan and it proposes to build 3 gigawatts of renewable energy. And, you know, calculations are that to catch up with its target, to fill that gap we're talking about earlier, is going to require something more like 15 gigawatts of renewable energy, five times as much as NYPA is proposing to build. NYPA says, "Look, you guys, if we're going to build 15 gigawatts of energy all at once, that's like $30 billion in capital."
And they say that would threaten their bond rating. But I think also implicit in this is just like New York taxpayers are going to, you know, like, there's a limit to the popularity of renewable energy. So, talk a little bit about what the NYPA plan has in it, your objections to it, and what this kind of process — I've been reading about, like, they came out with the initial plan last year and then they were supposed to come out with a final plan, I thought, in January of this year. So, did that happen? What's in it and what do you think about it?
Patrick Robbins
Yes, so they did come out with the final plan, and it contained that 3 gigawatts of capacity.
David Roberts
And so, all the objections to the proposed — like, they came out with this proposed plan with 3 gigawatts. Everybody created a stink about it. The stink was ineffective, I guess. Like, the final plan still has 3 gigawatts in it.
Patrick Robbins
Well, not quite, because they've also signaled, and they were very careful during the vote when they voted for this plan. Leadership was very, very careful to say, "We are considering an additional 3 gigawatts as part of an additional summer session." So the first thing I'll say is that that existing 3 gigawatts would not have been built without our work, full stop. So I do think that that's important to keep in mind. And then I don't think that we would be talking about this additional 3 gigawatts either if there hadn't been this outpouring of public pressure from all over New York State with 5,000 New Yorkers showing up for what is often a fairly wonky, technocratic, kind of closed-door energy planning process.
So, we do want to see NYPA be more ambitious, and we'll see how things go in that additional summer session.
David Roberts
And the guy in charge of NYPA right now, or at least last year when all this was going down, is Justin Driscoll, a Republican, who could not get confirmed by the New York Senate. But Kathy Hochul, in her infinite wisdom, snuck him into the position basically by making his interim position there permanent. Why? Why, Kathy? So, is he still in there and has his disposition toward all this changed at all?
Patrick Robbins
He's still in there, but look, I think that we were not pleased when the Governor confirmed him anyway, obviously. And I think that we do not believe he's the right person for this job. But he's not the only person making decisions. And I know that there are a lot of people who genuinely really care about this, who work at NYPA. And for the most part, everything that I have described for you are things that we are calling on for them to do through bond financing. So the concern about taxpayers, that is real, but we want to see this done in a way that doesn't actually impact the state's budget.
NYPA has AA-rated bonds. In fact, their rating was upgraded in the last several months. And we know that they could be doing far, far more than they are doing now. The one exception that I will say is, frankly, I think it would be great if they would hire more people. I think the renewable team does a great job.
David Roberts
State capacity!
Patrick Robbins
Yes, yes, exactly.
David Roberts
Tapping the sign.
Patrick Robbins
Yeah, exactly. It's like, what are we doing here if we're not hiring enough people to get the job done? And that's true across so many different sectors. This is the definition of preaching to the choir. But that is one thing where we want to support staffers at NYPA to be able to do this work as well as they can.
David Roberts
So, what is their argument for why only 3 rather than 15? I mean, one argument that I can imagine is just that renewable energy is land-intensive and New York is like — the Northeast generally, but New York in particular — is like crowded and congested. There just aren't tons of swaths of open land. Is that what they're saying? Why are, what is, their argument?
Patrick Robbins
Well, I wish I knew, David. They have been telling us that they can't do this, but you'll notice that in their draft plan and in their final plan, it's really light on methodology. So, you know, we want to work with them in good faith. And, you know, if they're saying "We can only build this much." Our position is, "Okay, prove it." Have you done the modeling on this? Because we have and we have seen that you could be doing much more without damaging your credit rating. And the fact that they're kind of considering doubling the capacity from what they advanced before, one of the things that, that signals to us is of course they can be doing more.
They wouldn't be considering this if they didn't.
David Roberts
Well, if you're using highly precise and reliable models, you don't just go, "Eh, okay, maybe we can 2x it." Not really. That's not a small dream.
Patrick Robbins
No, you're totally right. And honestly, what I think one of the things, one of the many things that I think this speaks to, is the need for more planning and the need for leadership that takes these problems seriously. You know, I had a really funny experience when I went and testified at the NYPA board. A pretty high-level staffer came up to me at one point and said, people were very kind and they, you know, shook my hand and all of that. But one of them said, "You know what, what we really need is we need the governor to just get all the state agencies together and say, 'Here's what we need to build, here's where we're going to build it, here's how, and here's how much.'"
And I was like, "Okay, comrade, I totally agree." This is just a very funny thing to hear you say, but I totally agree.
David Roberts
This was like John McCain's plan for solving Afghanistan. Do you remember that? You just get all the warlords in a room together, bang their heads, tell them to get in shape. Problem solved, you're good to go. What's the problem here?
Patrick Robbins
One of the takeaways there is like, these are political problems. At the end of the day, these are not merely technocratic problems, although they present technocratic problems as well. There are ways to do this.
David Roberts
Well, there may be, let's not wave away technocratic problems. There may be technocratic problems. It's just like trying to discern them clearly through the haze of politics is the challenge.
Patrick Robbins
And having that political will is a precondition to addressing those technocratic problems. And I think that there are ways to do that even in states that don't have a legacy public power institution. Maybe you don't have a NYPA, but maybe you do have municipal bonds or a state pension or green bank.
David Roberts
I want to get back to that. So, the state of things is NYPA has come out with this plan you're pushing back, but where do things go from here? Do they just start building? In terms of process, is it just, "We're ready to get going and start building now."? Are there other process pieces that remain to be done here?
Patrick Robbins
Yes. So, there is a lot that they have to do in terms of developing contracts on individual projects. They are mandated to come out with a peak power plant shutdown plan in the next few months. So, we will be paying careful attention to that as well.
David Roberts
This is something that tripped me up a little bit. So, part of what the bill requires them to do is to shut down their — what is it, six...? Ten gas plants they own ahead of schedule. And the schedule was when, 2030? So, like, when are they shutting those down? So, it seems to me like at least in the coming decade or whatever, most of what they build is going to be to replace power that they're shutting down. Is that accurate?
Patrick Robbins
I mean, I would love for them to prioritize replacing that power directly. And I think that you're going to have a lot of, you know, legitimate concerns about reliability unless you are being as ambitious as you need to be in that specific load zone.
David Roberts
Right, right. Like, these are dispatchable assets in congested areas that you're closing down. Those are, like, very useful. And, you know, renewables, as we all know, are not dispatchable. So, like, a lot of batteries are going to have to happen here. You need transmission connecting things. Like, there's a lot of big stuff you need.
Patrick Robbins
That's exactly correct. And that is what we'll be watching for in the summer session.
David Roberts
Right. So, one of the things that sold the bill to doubtful legislators was the promise of federal funding. Big buckets of federal funding from various and sundry Biden policies, mostly the IRA, but also, I think, some other things. You know, as we see now, Trump and his people are doing everything they can to shut down that flow of money, to pull back what money they can. How badly would it affect this whole program in New York if Trump cut off the flow of federal money?
Patrick Robbins
So, I think that there is a real concern about that, and that's one of the reasons why we need NYPA to be accelerating their timetable and front-loading the planning that they're doing. Our understanding is that the treasury has guaranteed safe harbor provisions for renewable projects through 2026, but that's really soon. And so, we need to see projects, as many projects get started right now, and then you can start to build the kind of revenue streams that can then be reinvested, and you can build the kind of political will to keep going on this. And I think that for more, you know, more analysis and more subtlety around that, I think Johanna is probably the person to talk to on like big picture IRA prospects. But that's what I would say for now.
David Roberts
Yeah, yeah. Well, Lady Johanna, let's hear from you. You've been quiet.
Johanna Bozuwa
You know, the intricacies of New York state politics can be confounding to one. And you know, I think Patrick and the Public Power New York team have kind of masterfully navigated them, but you know, when it comes to these kinds of federal tax credits, I think it's a very real experience that not only NYPA is experiencing right now of like, "Oh my gosh, what is going to happen?" but the entire industry.
David Roberts
Literally everyone.
Johanna Bozuwa
Literally everyone. Exactly. And so, when you are losing some of those subsidies, I think what you can imagine is that the private industry, no longer seeing the profit margins, is going to potentially flake faster.
Whereas NYPA actually has some of this public interest, it has these, as Patrick's mentioned, like access to the bond financing mechanisms that actually potentially could make it a more durable actor that holds the tide from now until hopefully we regain a certain amount of power. So, I think it is right that everyone's going to be nervous about this. It could potentially cut down on access to financing and funding. And also, could this be the agency that's going to make sure that we keep on at least putting one foot in front of the other in these really unstable times?
David Roberts
Johanna, you're involved in the broader push for public power. So, I'm curious if you've been tracking public opinion around this in New York. As we've been discussing this — there are, like, acronyms involved in mechanisms and financing, and it's very obscure. And I'm guessing that the average Joe and Jane New York voter don't know most of what's going on here. So, I'm just curious, do we have any sense of what people know? What is the degree of support? Because one of the things I want to ask you about is the lessons you can take out of this.
What's next, where else to go and what else to do? So do we know whether it's working in New York in the narrow sense of retaining its popularity?
Johanna Bozuwa
I can speak to that a little bit. There have been polls that were done in the lead up to the campaign that showed that overall, public power is popular, and that's been true across the board. So, I live in Maine, David, where there was also a recent public power fight that lost. It is tough when you are going against 40 to 1 in terms of investment in the campaigns, which I do think also shows just like, how terrified the utilities are of, like, scrappy crews of volunteers, basically sick of their utilities. But even in those cases, even though the utility lost, there was pretty consistent polling that showed that people were in favor of public ownership.
But honestly what came through is that they were nervous about that transition, which I think is an interesting question for us, right?
David Roberts
I mean, who among us, right?
Johanna Bozuwa
Who among us? Like, it's change, right? Decarbonization makes people nervous, too. And I think it is about, like, making sure that people feel held through the process. And I have some polling coming out in a report on a retrospective on the Maine case. And actually, there was polling that showed they were asked the question, "Do you expect more or less of these campaigns to come in the future?" And the majority of people said that they expected more of these types of public power campaigns. And what I think that shows us is that people are in fact upset and sick of their utilities, right?
Like, they're sick of the shutoffs, they're tired of high utility bills. And that's why I think the BPRA example is interesting in this moment in which, for lack of a better term, Dems are in disarray. I think we've heard that everywhere. Everyone's trying to figure out, okay, like, "What does it mean? What do we do? How do we, like, reshore up?"
David Roberts
They need to show they can build, Johanna. This is what I keep friggin reading every five seconds. They need to show they can build.
Johanna Bozuwa
They need to show they can build. And they also, I think, have to show that they understand what working people are experiencing right now, which is like the number one issue for people is the cost of living. So, how are we connecting the cost of living to the climate crisis? How are we connecting the campaigns that we do to real implementation that then does the building? And I think that public power in some ways actually does have this tangibility to it. Do you hate your utility? Do they keep on increasing your rates but service is getting worse? I don't know. It's our grid. You're already paying for it. We should own it. And so that is compelling. When you go knock on the doors to pull in an anecdote from Maine. Like, imagine the most Mainer person you can imagine.
David Roberts
Get those L.L. Bean boots on, whatever those boots are.
Johanna Bozuwa
They have L.L. Bean boots on, and they're like in their garage fixing their snowmobile, right? This is the person my friend Lucy went and knocked on the door of and was like, "Hey, how do you feel about Central Maine Power?" And he was like, "I hate Central Maine Power. My bills keep on going up, and I don't understand why. Like, why is all that money going over to Spain with Iberdrola? We should own this thing." So, it's like, it does have this feeling of, you know, people right now feel like they don't have power, right?
They feel like the world is coming at them. They are not in control. And I think that there is a certain amount of public power campaigns that say, "Actually, we can have control."
David Roberts
"We can just do the things we want to do." Revolutionary message.
Johanna Bozuwa
Exactly. This is the thing, David, right? When we think of the world we've been living in for the past, what, 50 years of neoliberalism, right? The invisible hand of the market is going to take care of things. And I don't think we have 100% seen that give us the best outcomes that we could possibly have.
David Roberts
But my phone is so small.
Johanna Bozuwa
Oh, I know. Isn't it so great?
David Roberts
And the thing about utilities is, like, you can make an argument for the brute power of the market, even if it's got sharp edges, it does good things. And you can make a case for public provision. But, like this half-assed, worst of both worlds hybrid that we have in the utility sector, like, no one could love that. Who could love the current situation?
Johanna Bozuwa
No, it's absolutely, absolutely terrible.
David Roberts
Let me get the criticism, I guess, that I wanted to throw at both of you and see what you had to say about it. You know, you're aware of the sort of intellectual currents going around. There is this sort of abundance movement around that is very much saying, like, "Build, build, build." Dems need to build for a million reasons. You know, we covered some of them on the housing episode. And we need more decarbonization, we need domestic jobs and to revive domestic industries, you know, on and on. But part of what those people say, the abundance people, is "We need to build as fast as possible."
The problem with liberals is that, you know, this is referred to as everything bagel liberalism, is that they try to do everything with every bill. They try to do everything with every move. And so to me, a lot of this looks like classic everything bagel liberalism. Like, we need to build a bunch more renewables here in New York State. The thing to do if you really want to build a lot more renewables is to make it as easy and cheap as possible to build those renewables. But when you add on these labor standards and the revenue goes here and there and you can only charge this much, the more you try to, you know, sort of pile on your other values, even if any of those individual provisions are like noble and defensible, you end up with kind of an unwieldy thing.
And this, I think, would be the big worry of the abundance people when they look at what's happening in New York. You've created this system where the only output can be the highest, the most expensive possible power and therefore, you're not going to get as much of it as you want.
Johanna Bozuwa
So, my perspective on this, or to reframe that, is I actually think public ownership is efficient planning.
Patrick Robbins
Yes.
Johanna Bozuwa
I think that many of the bills that we have worked on over the past few decades of climate policy have been a series of carrots and sticks, mostly carrots, that are saying, "Please go this way, please go this way. Oh, yikes. Oh, you went off over there. But please, if you could go a little bit more over this way, and then we're going to create these regulatory places." It's very chaotic. It's hard if you're a private actor to actually even be able to make sense of that. Right. And I think we see the outcomes of that in the slowdown or private capital not rushing into the places that we need it. Whereas with public ownership, instead of having these tax incentives and regulations, you set the target and you march towards it. So, I think that that's just a major difference.
And if we are interested in this question of, like, what is populism, we need it to lower bills for people. We need it to feel like they have control. And that's what I think Patrick and the Public Power NY folks did with those provisions. They said, "Yeah, and it's gonna get you a good job and it's going to be high wage." And they said, "Yeah, actually, instead of those profits going to private institutions and shareholders who are the elite rich, we're going to reinvest it in you." And, like, the money was already going to go away anyway.
Right. Like, if it was a private institution, it was going to go to revenues, to shareholders, to their financiers. And in this case, because the ratepayers own the entity, they're the ones that are receiving the benefit. And so, I think that's where I kind of come into conflict with this theory of abundance, because I do 100% believe in abundance. It's just how we're setting it up for success.
Patrick Robbins
I would completely echo everything Johanna just said. And I do want to say that I have the polling in front of me on public power in New York and the Build Public Renewables Act in particular. And at least amongst the sample that they were polling, that's a 63% support rate, and that is actually higher than the percent of support for Governor Kathy Hochul, last we checked.
David Roberts
Is this the bar, though? Is this the bar? Is this the bar we want to clear? More popular than Kathy Hochul?
Patrick Robbins
I do think the way that we maintain that level of support is making sure that renewables work for everyone. So, it's really a false dichotomy saying we're either going to have labor and renewables, or we're either going to have environmental justice and renewables. In fact, the reason we have the political mandate to do more is because it works for so many people. And the way the financing works, there are plenty of reasons why the private market is enormously inefficient and poorly suited to this task, which many of your guests, like Brett Christophers, have gotten into. But I think it's also worth noting that left to its own devices, the market will select against the kind of things that help build that political constituency.
I still have, I would say, good relationships with a lot of friends of mine in the renewable development world in New York State. But there was one ACE NY that was pretty opposed to the passage of the BPRA. And you look at how they use their lobbying power in the legislature, and they consistently lobby against pilot payments to the communities where they are housed. And you just don't have that kind of thing with public institutions. You don't have public institutions spending vast amounts of ratepayer money on lobbying against climate progress, which you absolutely have with private institutions and sticking ratepayers with the bill.
I think that the beauty of public power is, it says okay in so many ways. We are already supporting these kinds of artificial markets through pools of money like RECs, and in other countries, you have contracts for difference and stuff like that. What we're saying is, we're already spending so much of this public money. The public deserves a voice if that's how it's going to be. We deserve a say in what our energy system looks like.
Johanna Bozuwa
A piece here that I think is also important, right, when we're talking about public ownership in the energy transition — I fully agree with everything Patrick said — I think a lot of us that are working on the issue of public power still expect a very mixed economy and that actually we see this as a potential accelerant for different forms of commerce. An example I'll give you, David, that's one of my favorites is actually NYPA and NYCHA, the New York City Housing Authority, working together. This was, I think, in the 80s, where the two of them got together and they're like, "You know what? We actually just like we need to lower the costs of bills and make our housing more efficient, our public housing more efficient."
So, what they did is they created a competition for energy-efficient, apartment-sized refrigerators that were manufactured in the United States. Right. Like all of those requirements. And if you were able to develop this thing, you got the contract. And so, they ran it and it actually was the thing that created the first Energy Star fridge that was of that size, slashed energy costs for public housing, provided that not only to public housing ultimately, but became consistent across apartment dwellers across the country.
And also, they created a recycling plant for all the old stuff in Syracuse, New York, like creating more economic benefit in the area. So, I do think that there are these opportunities for us to see public ownership as an accelerant for the larger new economy we're trying to build.
Patrick Robbins
And another example of that, Johanna, that will be very close to your heart, of course, is Nebraska. Right around the time all of these shifts were happening in how we generate power across the country in the 1930s as part of the New Deal, you know, there was Senator Norris fighting for public power in Nebraska, which is still deeply popular and sort of a source of local pride. And it's not an accident that the WPA had a whole theater department, you know, like, they literally had an entire wing devoted to making sure people understood and felt the benefits of energy in their lives. And this isn't a groundbreaking idea.
I'm thinking about Leah Stokes, for example, who I know you've had on the show before, and her idea of organized conflict between interest groups and that being kind of like the driving force for how the grid develops. And I totally agree with that, honestly. And the way in which you set yourself up for being able to build more renewables is by making sure it works for everyone.
David Roberts
Along those lines, is there any plan or thought about, like, do you guys have a theater department? Do you know what I mean? Are you thinking about how to ensure that New Yorkers know what is happening and that they're in charge of it? You know what I mean? Like, as we've seen, the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) kind of, you know, lived and died. No one ever knew about it. The biggest thing that ever happened, and no one ever found out about it.
Patrick Robbins
Totally. And there's a lot of lessons to draw from that. I mean, I wish that there had been more attention to that at the federal level. I will say here in New York, we've gotten something like 45 major media stories in the last year. New York Times, New Republic. We've had as many public events as we can reasonably throw on this. And there's just going to be more. So, changing that and making sure people not just understand the benefits of planning the energy system and having a planned energy system, but feel some agency in being brought into that planning process.
I think that's the key to good organizing, and we only plan on doing more of that.
David Roberts
Yeah, and I will say, if I could editorialize a little bit, like Leah's point about the grid being shaped by the clash of different forces. I also think something similar is true in media in terms of public opinion. And this is something Democrats, kind of the Democratic establishment, legendarily doesn't get. They sort of are still acting as though there's a media that has to cover them, you know what I mean? So they can just say the safe, nice sounding thing and it will get covered. And what they have not, you know, updated their priors on, it's like no one has to pay attention to it all these days.
And the only way to get attention is to structure a conflict, you know, and like the right is so good at doing this, at ginning up these kind of symbolic conflicts that draw attention. And so, you know, I would just throw that out there. It's an ongoing way, like how to make New Yorkers aware of this, pick some good fights, you know what I mean? We're running out of time, but I wanted to ask Johanna. New York had a century-old public utility sitting there, more or less unused, just waiting to be pulled out of the shed and like tuned up and set going.
Very handy for a public power campaign in New York. Most states do not have one of those. So, what does the campaign for public power look like in places where you don't happen to have a giant public utility sitting in a closet?
Johanna Bozuwa
It's a great question and one I've contended with. Really, what it comes down to is, I think, that there are gradations of public power that we can talk about. Right? Like, it's everything from cities deciding to put solar on the top of their roofs to lower costs, to wholesale acquisition of a utility from nuts to soup. So, I think it really is context-dependent. It has to do with what you're trying to accomplish. Right. If we're being principled about why you're doing public ownership, it's like, what are you trying to accomplish with the public ownership?
That becomes important, and I'll give a couple of examples. One option is a public entity finance and own the renewable assets. We've actually been working with the Chicago Teachers Union on negotiating into their current contract, solar on schools that the city owns, and associating with that education around renewables, around renewable energy jobs. It's something that then can in turn actually lower the utility costs of the schools.
David Roberts
Yeah, I mean, renewable energy for schools is like the puppies and grandma of renewable energy. To me, anyway, it's like the perfect leading wedge to get this stuff started, you know?
Johanna Bozuwa
Absolutely.
Patrick Robbins
I totally agree.
Johanna Bozuwa
Like, it is the charismatic megafauna of renewable energy, honestly. Also, like the teachers, they say, you know, I was talking with my colleague Betul, who does most of our teachers' work, and she says that it's really amazing because teachers get to fight for something that lowers costs. Right. And that's a really great thing when you're also fighting for increases in your salary and support for your students. The Connecticut Green Bank has actually worked a lot with schools, for instance, and has some of the highest rates of solar on schools in Connecticut because they are doing public financing solar on schools.
So, that's an example of public power in action right there. It may not look the same way, but it really is about how do we marshal our public institutions to do the things that we want them to do?
David Roberts
Are there, beyond New York, fights over public power of particular note going on right now that people should clock? I mean, New York is the big one. I certainly don't think there's anything this big happening anywhere else. But are there other battles of note?
Johanna Bozuwa
There were just some campaigns that were in San Diego. San Francisco is actually continuing to investigate if they should municipalize their utility, which I know is spicy.
David Roberts
Yeah, that's fraught.
Johanna Bozuwa
Yes. But I've also heard rumblings of new campaigns kind of coming out of the woodwork in places like Oregon. I think Maine and New York were the two key ones that we had over the past couple of years. And now, I think we're in this next moment of like, "Okay, where is the next big campaign going to be focused?" And what can we learn from the campaigns that we've seen operate to date, too? Where have we won? Where have we lost?
Patrick Robbins
And to any of your listeners who are considering fights in their area, we would love to talk to you.
Johanna Bozuwa
One thing to mention as well is, even if you don't have NYPA, there may also be other entities that could operate in a similar way. So, California's Department of Water Resources is just looking for these random entities that have built stuff in the past. Right. And the Department of Water Resources is already working to procure renewable energy and already owns some of these assets. That's another place where you can build a campaign around that in the same way that NYPA is doing and just increase their commitment to decarbonization, for instance.
David Roberts
All right, well, that seems like a great place to leave it. I'm sure this is going to be an ongoing story in the run-up to 2030.
Patrick Robbins
Indeed.
David Roberts
When all the world's deadlines will suddenly be upon us, and we will see, we'll be able to see what happened in New York, I guess, will be very indicative. Canary in the coal mine, as it were.
Patrick Robbins
Well, thank you again so much for having us on and letting us share more about the work that's happening in New York. Really, really grateful for that.
David Roberts
Yeah, it's cool to find good things still happening.
Johanna Bozuwa
Exactly.
David Roberts
Points of light, or whatever. All right, Patrick, Johanna, thank you so much for coming on.
Patrick Robbins
Thank you.
Johanna Bozuwa
Thanks, David.
David Roberts
Thank you for listening to Volts. It takes a village to make this podcast work. Shout out, especially, to my super producer, Kyle McDonald, who makes me and my guests sound smart every week. And it is all supported entirely by listeners like you. So, if you value conversations like this, please consider joining our community of paid subscribers at volts.wtf. Or, leaving a nice review, or telling a friend about Volts. Or all three. Thanks so much, and I'll see you next time.
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