In addition to the fantastic work done by Solutionary Rail, see also the Rail Electrification Coalition - nema.org/membership/nema-councils/rail-electrification-council - a project of the National Electrical Manufacturers Association. The REC's emphasis is on fostering relationships between the rail and electric transmission industries.
Fantastic episode. The point about the map of rail rights-of-way mapping so closely onto NREL proposals for transmission corridors is so intriguing. Would love to hear more about to what extent (and how/why) buried HVDC is becoming more competitive with overhead towers. If that ever became fully the case (or just close enough to true that the cost premium was compensated by the avoided pushback/permitting difficulties for towers), it feels like that would be a game-changer. No need for enlightened ideas among rail operators: transmission builders could PAY them to use their rights of way.
Bigger question this raises: one of the huge blocks to new transmission is obviously permitting. If that were solved in this way, presumably cost allocation between regions, utilities would still be another difficulty. But if the economics were good enough, couldn't merchant transmission companies (like Michael Skelly's, as described in _Superpower_) that finance the cost themselves and buy and sell power on either end, avoid that difficulty too? What would then be left to block/slow transmission build out (beyond interconnection queues)? I'm sure there's plenty, but as an amateur Volts listener following along, it's not obvious to me what it would be. On the theory that Volts episodes get listened to and often inspire action, would be great to have an episode devoted to these questions.
Asked the same question on Bluesky ( https://bsky.app/profile/jeffsseidman.bsky.social/post/3lak5aef5es2s ), and a transmission developer pointed out that DC towers can be narrower than AC, so they fit pretty easily in a RR right of way – and thus (he argued) no need to burry. His answer to why it's not happening now was simple never-been-done-before conservatism -- which kind of blows my mind, given that (if I'm understanding situation rightly) there should be money to be made by all parties, including RR, and a way around the torturous, decades-long permitting delays that characterize transmission development now.
I hope you'll check out our Reconnect America podcast and stay tuned for upcoming episodes. It's a rich subject matter and it seems like you'll enjoy exploring it with us.
Love this episode. Rail is being run into the ground and something needs to be done about it. One issue that was not raised is that interoperability of rail systems is essential. This means that it is quite difficult to electrify only part of a rail system without disrupting how the whole system operates. Erecting catenary on all Class I rail lines at once could easily cost $200 billion or more. This does not mean it is not worth doing, but it is does mean it will be a hefty price tag for the federal government. If the government nationalizes rail lines, that will be an additional cost to purchase the rights of way (necessary because of the takings clause). Starting with zero emission rail yards is a good place to start and one FRA is pursuing (for now). https://railroads.dot.gov/rail-network-development/environment/fras-climate-and-sustainability-program. Love the vision and love this pod, but we have a lot of work to do!
This pod was pure joy. I loved Bill's oscillating between sarcasm and idealism. A very nice match for David. So....what are all the Forces of Evil against this project? I feel like the drive to get a 40% profit from everything is coming from the stock market. What ever happened to a nice tidy 10% return? And then everyone wonders why groceries are so expensive. It's Wall Street, stupid.
I've only recently discovered Bill Moyer's work, but it's resonated with me more than most anything else I've ever discovered. As a lifelong railroad enthusiast turned career railroader and now a burgeoning climate activist, he's doing the good work and fighting the good fight that so few want to work for, but so many need. I can't understand why more of the general public (and railroaders too!) can't get fully on-board with Bill's Solutionary Rail proposal. This was a great episode, and a great introduction to your work David!
MARGA? "Make America's Railroads Great Again?" Probably not. Seems very selective; what was "great," and whether it gets the "again" treatment.
MATPTWF? "Make America's Truckers Pay Their Way Finally?" Not holding my breath.
Glad you all gave H2 the thumbs down. I do recall reading about some EU or UK rail where they I think catenary was added recently, but only to sections of the track and the new trains for the routes included modest batteries to avoid adding catenary poles and wires to difficult stretches. But they weren't relying on batteries for hundreds of miles. Batteries could recharge again when the train was back on wired stretches.
I seem to encounter lots of enviros who like H2 because they are so freaked out about batteries and the Li, Ni, Co supply chains. Almost none understand how much more generation, of whatever kind, is required by the inefficiency of the H2 conversions.
It occurs to me after listening - and I've never read or heard it openly acknowledged - but probably it has - that the reason rail was expected to make a profit in modern times, say, post WW II, unlike highways which were not, was ironically because of their inherent efficiency. Since rail operation per se doesn't require fossil fuel extraction nearly to the amount that highways do (or like rail did in early days of burning a lot of coal). But it was the automotive and tire industries that relied on oil extraction, that profited massively from public highway investment. Equally ironic is that the biggest profits for RRs are largely made from selecting to move heavy, slow shipments like - oil and coal. Sadly, now we have possibly elected a trifecta that will continue to promote extraction of "liquid gold". It will be a miracle if we make progress toward rail electrification powered by a clean grid, or toward public control/ownership of the steel interstate.
I need to chime in with a bit of history here since I am approaching 70. I remember my father, who himself remembered when his hometown had horse drawn ambulances, once told me that cars and trucks were so were so widely accepted in direct opposition to the Gilded Age railroad robber barons who controlled the railroads. I love railroads but not everyone once did.
That's an interesting point about past dislike of railroad robber barons. I wonder if that contributed to the adoption of anything but rail for transport. It's also interesting that generational shift seems to have lost that memory and now maybe we're working with a clean slate in terms of public opinion.
I'd love to see more train travel, as I think it's more sustainable than an army of Teslas.
My one concern with diesel electric generators is the massive amount of kHz/ electromagnetic interference they generate, which is biologically harmful.
Have you heard of the work of Samuel Milham, who wrote Dirty Electricity?
Railroads could save exponentially the amount of carbon emitted over the electrification of all cars. We need to cut the amount of cars in use by 2/3. Obviously the remaining 1/3 electric powered by renewable sources.
How to do this? A renewable powered nationwide high-speed rail professionally and smartly interconnected to local light rail is the answer.
Done smartly, not only would it remove well over half of the vehicles on the road, it could easily replace 750 to 800,000,000 of the nearly 900,000,000 domestic flights taken in the United States last year.
The project is a massive one, obviously. Requiring hundreds of thousands of laborers, megatons of material, and untold brain power. If implemented as a nationwide project starting all over the country with fair and just compensation packages to everyone involved, the increase in local tax base would easily cover the light rail in municipalities. As for the nationwide high-speed rail, it's time we make investments instead of create expenses. That's all we do, at the moment.
Hey #WeightByMileToll should be instituted on every highway by way road and freeway in America. Eliminating the gas tax which is regressive AF. I don't know about you guys but my back hurts from carrying the Fortune 500. Such a model would create a profit. There's a reason state and multi state toll roads have been privatized. While still being the finest roads in America.
You don't have to legislate people move away from cars or people move to different form of travel. You simply have to provide a better option.
Thank me later ......
As an aside, we are missing the greatest opportunity in renewables on earth. Well over half the people on this rock live right next to the coast. The extra investment on materials and design due to such harsh conditions of tide energy capturing devices would easily pay for itself over and over, simply because there is no need for storage. That, combined with incentivized community and individual micro grid models on a nationwide basis is the answer to our travel and shipping carbon emissions.
Imagine EV's for $7000 price that saves the owner $2000 a year for 50 years. In 2025 GM and CATL will introduce an EV for $25,000 and it can charge 124 miles in 5 minutes. In 7 years that EV will sell for $7000. Let's say you are low to middle income apartment household and only buy used vehicles, typically 7 years old and you keep it for 4 years, then buy another $7000 used vehicle. That fits your budget. Ok assume you can buy a gas vehicle but the EV will save you $2000 a year so you switch to EVs for the rest of your life. Over 25 years that has a net present value of $30,000 assuming 3% inflation. But that is the case if you drive that average of 38 miles a day. About 20% of low income apartment households drive twice that would save $4000 a year. They rent where it is cheap but drive 50 miles to the city for higher paying jobs. Ok that's $60,000 net present value. Guess it's time to go EV. Oh where do you charge it? You join a coop for a one time fee of $500 and each year maintenance fee of $100. That allows you access to 10 minutes of charging per day, or 250 miles of added range each day. Perhaps all you need is 10 minutes once a day. The cost of electric power is at wholesale. Do you join the coop? Of course. How does the coop offer this deal? The cost of a 6 port 350 kw high speed charging equipment and installation is $59,000. It will service 6 X 10 hours/day X 6 EVs/hour X 7 EVs that need 250 miles per week or 2520 EVs so $25 per coop member for the equipment and a bit for profit and administration. You in?
This is a great discussion! I guess I was distracted by the events of the day when this was published and didn't catch it until now.
I'm a fan of railroad electrification and complementary use for national transmission. I remember proposing ideas like this to the Obama administration as part of some climate action brainstorm, and sent letters to BNSF and GE, a U.S. locomotive manufacturer, to drum up interest. One aspect of that proposal was the hardening of the transmission grid to protect against foreseeable worsening storms that take out transmission, like hurricanes Helene, Ida, Laura, and Michael and the 2020 Midwest derecho did. I called the concept "Building the national backbone" and the rationale for hardening of infrastructure included national security.
I think one way to improve rail service and profitability, if this effort is anchored to that neoliberal prerequisite, is to develop autonomous navigation to move freight and people in smaller units that can fluidly flow as independent packets instead of giant snaking chains of cars. Of course this would be electric drive. It seems that kind of mode modernization would better serve small towns.
I love Moyer's idea that train travel is something Americans who are divided over other topics can talk about. I still wonder if there's a significant market for mode-shifting (from private vehicles to trains) outside of metro areas and the densely populated Northeast. We love our cars and trucks, which provide real freedom and flexibility, externalities aside.
In addition to the fantastic work done by Solutionary Rail, see also the Rail Electrification Coalition - nema.org/membership/nema-councils/rail-electrification-council - a project of the National Electrical Manufacturers Association. The REC's emphasis is on fostering relationships between the rail and electric transmission industries.
If electrons are “things” that need to be transported and stored, maybe RR investors should see electricity transportation as core to their business.
Fantastic episode. The point about the map of rail rights-of-way mapping so closely onto NREL proposals for transmission corridors is so intriguing. Would love to hear more about to what extent (and how/why) buried HVDC is becoming more competitive with overhead towers. If that ever became fully the case (or just close enough to true that the cost premium was compensated by the avoided pushback/permitting difficulties for towers), it feels like that would be a game-changer. No need for enlightened ideas among rail operators: transmission builders could PAY them to use their rights of way.
Bigger question this raises: one of the huge blocks to new transmission is obviously permitting. If that were solved in this way, presumably cost allocation between regions, utilities would still be another difficulty. But if the economics were good enough, couldn't merchant transmission companies (like Michael Skelly's, as described in _Superpower_) that finance the cost themselves and buy and sell power on either end, avoid that difficulty too? What would then be left to block/slow transmission build out (beyond interconnection queues)? I'm sure there's plenty, but as an amateur Volts listener following along, it's not obvious to me what it would be. On the theory that Volts episodes get listened to and often inspire action, would be great to have an episode devoted to these questions.
Asked the same question on Bluesky ( https://bsky.app/profile/jeffsseidman.bsky.social/post/3lak5aef5es2s ), and a transmission developer pointed out that DC towers can be narrower than AC, so they fit pretty easily in a RR right of way – and thus (he argued) no need to burry. His answer to why it's not happening now was simple never-been-done-before conservatism -- which kind of blows my mind, given that (if I'm understanding situation rightly) there should be money to be made by all parties, including RR, and a way around the torturous, decades-long permitting delays that characterize transmission development now.
Single most mind blowing guest you’ve had. And that’s saying A Lot.
Also the first episode I listened to three (3) times in a row,
I hope you'll check out our Reconnect America podcast and stay tuned for upcoming episodes. It's a rich subject matter and it seems like you'll enjoy exploring it with us.
https://solutionaryrail.substack.com/p/1-reconnect-america?r=navx8&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Love this episode. Rail is being run into the ground and something needs to be done about it. One issue that was not raised is that interoperability of rail systems is essential. This means that it is quite difficult to electrify only part of a rail system without disrupting how the whole system operates. Erecting catenary on all Class I rail lines at once could easily cost $200 billion or more. This does not mean it is not worth doing, but it is does mean it will be a hefty price tag for the federal government. If the government nationalizes rail lines, that will be an additional cost to purchase the rights of way (necessary because of the takings clause). Starting with zero emission rail yards is a good place to start and one FRA is pursuing (for now). https://railroads.dot.gov/rail-network-development/environment/fras-climate-and-sustainability-program. Love the vision and love this pod, but we have a lot of work to do!
This pod was pure joy. I loved Bill's oscillating between sarcasm and idealism. A very nice match for David. So....what are all the Forces of Evil against this project? I feel like the drive to get a 40% profit from everything is coming from the stock market. What ever happened to a nice tidy 10% return? And then everyone wonders why groceries are so expensive. It's Wall Street, stupid.
I've only recently discovered Bill Moyer's work, but it's resonated with me more than most anything else I've ever discovered. As a lifelong railroad enthusiast turned career railroader and now a burgeoning climate activist, he's doing the good work and fighting the good fight that so few want to work for, but so many need. I can't understand why more of the general public (and railroaders too!) can't get fully on-board with Bill's Solutionary Rail proposal. This was a great episode, and a great introduction to your work David!
Super interesting. Thanks.
MARGA? "Make America's Railroads Great Again?" Probably not. Seems very selective; what was "great," and whether it gets the "again" treatment.
MATPTWF? "Make America's Truckers Pay Their Way Finally?" Not holding my breath.
Glad you all gave H2 the thumbs down. I do recall reading about some EU or UK rail where they I think catenary was added recently, but only to sections of the track and the new trains for the routes included modest batteries to avoid adding catenary poles and wires to difficult stretches. But they weren't relying on batteries for hundreds of miles. Batteries could recharge again when the train was back on wired stretches.
I seem to encounter lots of enviros who like H2 because they are so freaked out about batteries and the Li, Ni, Co supply chains. Almost none understand how much more generation, of whatever kind, is required by the inefficiency of the H2 conversions.
Wonderful interview!
It occurs to me after listening - and I've never read or heard it openly acknowledged - but probably it has - that the reason rail was expected to make a profit in modern times, say, post WW II, unlike highways which were not, was ironically because of their inherent efficiency. Since rail operation per se doesn't require fossil fuel extraction nearly to the amount that highways do (or like rail did in early days of burning a lot of coal). But it was the automotive and tire industries that relied on oil extraction, that profited massively from public highway investment. Equally ironic is that the biggest profits for RRs are largely made from selecting to move heavy, slow shipments like - oil and coal. Sadly, now we have possibly elected a trifecta that will continue to promote extraction of "liquid gold". It will be a miracle if we make progress toward rail electrification powered by a clean grid, or toward public control/ownership of the steel interstate.
I need to chime in with a bit of history here since I am approaching 70. I remember my father, who himself remembered when his hometown had horse drawn ambulances, once told me that cars and trucks were so were so widely accepted in direct opposition to the Gilded Age railroad robber barons who controlled the railroads. I love railroads but not everyone once did.
That's an interesting point about past dislike of railroad robber barons. I wonder if that contributed to the adoption of anything but rail for transport. It's also interesting that generational shift seems to have lost that memory and now maybe we're working with a clean slate in terms of public opinion.
I'd love to see more train travel, as I think it's more sustainable than an army of Teslas.
My one concern with diesel electric generators is the massive amount of kHz/ electromagnetic interference they generate, which is biologically harmful.
Have you heard of the work of Samuel Milham, who wrote Dirty Electricity?
Railroads could save exponentially the amount of carbon emitted over the electrification of all cars. We need to cut the amount of cars in use by 2/3. Obviously the remaining 1/3 electric powered by renewable sources.
How to do this? A renewable powered nationwide high-speed rail professionally and smartly interconnected to local light rail is the answer.
Done smartly, not only would it remove well over half of the vehicles on the road, it could easily replace 750 to 800,000,000 of the nearly 900,000,000 domestic flights taken in the United States last year.
The project is a massive one, obviously. Requiring hundreds of thousands of laborers, megatons of material, and untold brain power. If implemented as a nationwide project starting all over the country with fair and just compensation packages to everyone involved, the increase in local tax base would easily cover the light rail in municipalities. As for the nationwide high-speed rail, it's time we make investments instead of create expenses. That's all we do, at the moment.
Hey #WeightByMileToll should be instituted on every highway by way road and freeway in America. Eliminating the gas tax which is regressive AF. I don't know about you guys but my back hurts from carrying the Fortune 500. Such a model would create a profit. There's a reason state and multi state toll roads have been privatized. While still being the finest roads in America.
You don't have to legislate people move away from cars or people move to different form of travel. You simply have to provide a better option.
Thank me later ......
As an aside, we are missing the greatest opportunity in renewables on earth. Well over half the people on this rock live right next to the coast. The extra investment on materials and design due to such harsh conditions of tide energy capturing devices would easily pay for itself over and over, simply because there is no need for storage. That, combined with incentivized community and individual micro grid models on a nationwide basis is the answer to our travel and shipping carbon emissions.
Imagine EV's for $7000 price that saves the owner $2000 a year for 50 years. In 2025 GM and CATL will introduce an EV for $25,000 and it can charge 124 miles in 5 minutes. In 7 years that EV will sell for $7000. Let's say you are low to middle income apartment household and only buy used vehicles, typically 7 years old and you keep it for 4 years, then buy another $7000 used vehicle. That fits your budget. Ok assume you can buy a gas vehicle but the EV will save you $2000 a year so you switch to EVs for the rest of your life. Over 25 years that has a net present value of $30,000 assuming 3% inflation. But that is the case if you drive that average of 38 miles a day. About 20% of low income apartment households drive twice that would save $4000 a year. They rent where it is cheap but drive 50 miles to the city for higher paying jobs. Ok that's $60,000 net present value. Guess it's time to go EV. Oh where do you charge it? You join a coop for a one time fee of $500 and each year maintenance fee of $100. That allows you access to 10 minutes of charging per day, or 250 miles of added range each day. Perhaps all you need is 10 minutes once a day. The cost of electric power is at wholesale. Do you join the coop? Of course. How does the coop offer this deal? The cost of a 6 port 350 kw high speed charging equipment and installation is $59,000. It will service 6 X 10 hours/day X 6 EVs/hour X 7 EVs that need 250 miles per week or 2520 EVs so $25 per coop member for the equipment and a bit for profit and administration. You in?
This is a great discussion! I guess I was distracted by the events of the day when this was published and didn't catch it until now.
I'm a fan of railroad electrification and complementary use for national transmission. I remember proposing ideas like this to the Obama administration as part of some climate action brainstorm, and sent letters to BNSF and GE, a U.S. locomotive manufacturer, to drum up interest. One aspect of that proposal was the hardening of the transmission grid to protect against foreseeable worsening storms that take out transmission, like hurricanes Helene, Ida, Laura, and Michael and the 2020 Midwest derecho did. I called the concept "Building the national backbone" and the rationale for hardening of infrastructure included national security.
I think one way to improve rail service and profitability, if this effort is anchored to that neoliberal prerequisite, is to develop autonomous navigation to move freight and people in smaller units that can fluidly flow as independent packets instead of giant snaking chains of cars. Of course this would be electric drive. It seems that kind of mode modernization would better serve small towns.
I love Moyer's idea that train travel is something Americans who are divided over other topics can talk about. I still wonder if there's a significant market for mode-shifting (from private vehicles to trains) outside of metro areas and the densely populated Northeast. We love our cars and trucks, which provide real freedom and flexibility, externalities aside.
Am I the only one who expected the history of RRs to include the phrase “robber barons.”